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The Blue-Themed Nightmare || kuro5hin.org

I'll give you relentless, and even mindless, although we usually manage to stop the latter in the queue. I'll even spot you "endless"; you can prefix "seemingly" if you so desire. But "damaging"? How so?

You present an interesting excerpt from Miller, and then fail to see how it should have been applied -- not to the South but metaphorically to K5.

You've been here long enough and posted often enough to knów that there is an incredible variety of opinion, and serious differences thereof even between those who, more often than not, share other strong opinions. How is this "dangerous" or "bad" or even "questionable"?

IQia stories don't get the auto-dump from me. There have been been some interesting discussions, ideas, opinions and links coming out of these. What worries me are people who think there's nothing to talk about.

So howcome you didn't post this to the edit queue?

woof.

"The line between genius and stupidity is very fine indeed, but you're so far away from the line that it doesn't matter." -- This was supposed to be Topical by BadDoggie, 03/17/2003 04:02:11 PM EST ( none / 0)

Miller Quote by anaesthetica, 03/17/2003 05:13:31 PM EST ( 5.00 / 5)

... Harlan, what do you think about the weather?"

"Not bad for March. Could be gettin' close tomorrow, even."

"That Bush boy sure stood up and said his piece, didn't he?"

"Yes, sir, he did."

"Somethin' ain't it?"

"Yes, sir."

"You know, I was readin' on one of them web sites that someone faked that paper on the Iraqi nuclear supplies."

"Well, you know, no matter what game you're playin', there's always got to be a joker in the deck."

"Yeah, you got a point."

"I was readin' where someone said that geniuses got parts of their brains that are smarter than other people's parts."

"I hear bloodhounds got part of their noses that smell better than other dogs' noses."

"I sure hope they aren't spendin' my tax money on that crap."

"Yes, sir."

"Did you hear that new Beastie Boys song?"

"Yes, sir. Can't dance to it, at all."

"That's right, you can't."

"I wonder what our ol' boy Duxup's up to."

"Lovin'"

"I reckon."

"Things sure are close in the world these days."

"Yes, sir, close as hell."

On the Internet, anyone can accuse you of being a dog.

  • Lovin Indeed by duxup, 03/19/2003 02:26:27 AM EST ( none / 0)

I'm a Southerner, and I've never lost a debate here. Make of that what you will.

And there are some highly objectionable--even obscene--passages in many of Miller's works. Take a look at Opus Pistorum, if you don't believe. My favorite part is the Black Mass.

The real 'medham' has userid 6831.

An interesting commentary... ( 4.65 / 26) ( #7)

by gr3y on Mon Mar 17, 2003 at 04:56:23 PM EST

I was originally attracted to kuro5hin by the discussion.

I usually share my personal thoughts, opinions, and experiences - good, bad, and horrifying. However, all too often, a respondent seems more interested in "scoring points". To that end, he or she frequently picks some thing that I did not mention and uses it to "prove" that I'm wrong, or claims that I simply don't have the facts when I'm writing from the emotional well.

For instance, a recent poster tried to convince me that I did not go through basic and AIT with four soldiers with college degrees. He didn't ask what my military occupational specialty was, or he would have learned that it was military intelligence, and not infantry. If they had, this might have affected their argument, and might have lead to some understanding. She didn't ask, though, and wasn't willing to entertain the notion that she just didn't have enough facts on which to base her argument that all soldiers are uneducated, stupid brutes.

In short, there was no discussion, no attempt to understand my point of view, no dialogue... No one questions my comments, they merely dispute them. There's no realization that a human being is posting as "gr3y", with all the problems that usually causes, and who is usually willing to entertain alternative explanations for what I've witnessed.

This has become worse in recent months, and I've instituted a personal blanket ban on all "war in Iraq" stories simply to keep myself from being regularly infuriated. I get that at work and I don't need it when I'm trying to relax.

I don't even comment on them - I just vote them down as quickly as possible. I'm disgusted by the "Bush is an idiot" argument as an explanation for war in Iraq, any reference to "USian", and comments like: "the estimates of the peace march were waaay wrong - there were at least a million people there".

In short, for the past several weeks, I've considered it a profitless endeavour to post at all, and I've only posted a handful of comments in select circumstances. There's no point. When everyone's mind is already made up, there can be no exchange of ideas or experience.

I like your submission, and I'm interested in reading what other people have to say, so I'm voting it +1 FP. But I'm not voting in the poll because the options are too limited. How about a "none of the above"?

I am a disruptive technology.

minor disagreement: Injecting opinion into a story ( 4.10 / 10) ( #9)

by maynard on Mon Mar 17, 2003 at 05:03:27 PM EST

With this in mind, those who create stories, and those who post replies, ought to try and add something to the conversations, based on their personal experience--focusing on creating something of cultural insight rather than entering strict competition to see whose side can win the debate.

First of all, I voted +1,FP for this submission. Thanks for opening up a discussion about how to debate in an inherently polarized climate. While I do see some threads of people debating at odds with each other and to no resolution, I also have seen some amazingly intelligent and well read discussion as well. I see less vindictive and polemic debate and more rational discourse here than most places discussing the upcoming war. And this is certainly one of the most polarized sites I read: there's a healthy division of liberals and conservatives here, with neither really controlling the site.

A nit pick though. You write that authors should try to add personal experience and opinion in their writings, including story submissions. Unless the story is sectioned OP-ED, I completely disagree. Author's who write news should attempt to remove as much bias as they possibly can and stick to writing straight facts, with references backing their positions up. Nothing more. If an author wants to present opinion about the subject of their story, write a comment and let that issue get hashed out in a debate thread. JMO. (really short on time today, will try to respond to thread as I can) --M

Read The Proxies, a short crime thriller.

+1 FP. May the South rise again. ( 2.33 / 6) ( #12)

by dr zeus on Mon Mar 17, 2003 at 05:27:35 PM EST

We do not like any article which uses words like "mindless".

We are united, we are fools, and we are America!

  • Interesting by anaesthetica, 03/17/2003 07:45:49 PM EST ( 4.00 / 2)

    • Not an issue by United Fools, 03/17/2003 07:56:59 PM EST ( 1.25 / 4)

...we do tend to browbeat one another with 'facts' we've picked up from perusing the internet. Too often this borders on the sterile intellectualism that Miller mentions.

I wonder if this happens because a significant number of people here are schooled in the scientific method. So we tend to hope that we can prove our arguments with facts, evidence, and statistics.

That's an attitude which works perfectly in the purity of the lab, but not so well in the confusion of real life.

Funnily enough, the resulting arguments look neither sterile nor intellectual.

you have read my sig

... I was thinking about posting something similar about the nature of k5. However, I believe that you have forgotten the `nature' of the internet, the format or medium of this forum, as it were. As a network for the dissemination of information, people have learned to use the internet to do exactly what you criticise - find facts, remember them, regurgitate them - even batter eachother with them. I don't believe, and this may sound negative, that we have gone far enough, culturally, to be able to move true social intercourse to the net.

This could be for a number of reasons, not least, the consequences of the fact that there is no name to the face that posts. `Who am I?' for example, begs to be answered. There are no ties to a web-browser, no public link to my alias, no guarantee that I am sane even. I can make whatever comments I want without any major repercussions, which doesn't happen in the real world. We know very little information about posters... but what of it?

As a relatively new poster to this site, I often find myself looking through the histories of other posters in an attempt to find out more about them. In real-world interactions we do this information gathering subconsciously with a judgemental glace and, as I have watched myself do many a time, temper our responses to a person based on our judgement. When meeting the delivery man I say "Alright mate!" When meeting a client I say "Good afternoon, Mr. X."

So what happens without this social information? I suggest that we become more brash and critical. There are no consquences for our actions and so we speak out more. I have noticed that often it is the quietest who are the loudest on the net. But, we can't shout "Oi you with the red hair!", "Tree hugger!" or "Paedophile!" because we have nothing to base such an insult on. Instead, we hit eachother with the only personal information we have, facts from the post and other small titbits found on the http.

I think that's just the way it is and it's going to be. It is the nature of the internet and there is nothing that can be done about it. However, I shall endeavour to write more discursive posts in future and that's my little contribution.

"It makes you wonder what you're putting on your hook when you keep catching the same fish."

........

Well fuck you then.

You're either with us or against us.

--

The only winner is Michael Crawford. After the fall of society, the only currency will be Free Music CDs. -- ensignyu

People like talking about politics because it's easy to have an opinion and take sides and argue day in and day out.

Nothing gets discussed on K5, it merely goes through a battery of -1's and low comment ratings without any discussion to the contrary.

This is a bit perplexing, however, because we are discussing the discussions on K5 and I don't see much discussion.

"We're not here to educate. We're here to point and laugh." - creature

"You have some pretty stupid ideas." - indubitable ‮

It made me think this was going to be about Windows XP.

The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head.--Terry Pratchett

...is that you do not have a sufficiently deep understanding of internet message boards.

You have assumed, perhaps unconsciously, that exchanges in places like K5 are perfectly analogous to transcriptions of everyday face-to-face conversations (or, perhaps, fictional renditions thereof). This is an enormous mistake.

The users of K5 do not keep coming back because it is a good place to have discussions. They return because it is a good place to express themselves, and receive some validation or acknowledgement of that expression. K5 is an outlet, not an inlet.

People do not come here with the intent of crafting sweeping, literary dialogues, and it looks as if Miller, in that typically overripe passage of his, was similarly frustrated not with one manner of conversation or another, but with a lack of literary composition in the everyday spoken word. It is worth noting that his praise seems far more apt as a description of an imaginary South, that of Southern literature, than of a more mundane South, that of Southern speech, which is every bit as susceptible to the banal as that of the North (or of Glasgow or Sydney or Hong Kong, for that matter).

But I digress.

K5 is Hyde Park Corner, not your porch or your kitchen table (Apologies to William Franklin Rothman, who figured all of this out ages ago).

I am, incidentally, deeply amused to find myself (along with the rest of K5) being talked down to by Yet Another College Student Who Has Discovered Henry Miller. Unless I miss my guess, you'll be looking back at this ten years from now with the realization that you were, in your youth, painfully pompous, and hopelessly sanctimonious. With luck, you'll be able to laugh about it, too.

  • For trolls, maybe by greenrd, 03/18/2003 06:47:55 AM EST ( 3.33 / 3)

    • what's a troll? by loomingleaf, 03/18/2003 07:17:16 AM EST ( none / 0)

      • RE: what's a troll? by JahToasted, 03/18/2003 09:27:23 AM EST ( 5.00 / 2)

        • ahhh... by loomingleaf, 03/18/2003 09:48:13 AM EST ( none / 0)

      • Yes /nt by greenrd, 03/18/2003 01:11:36 PM EST ( none / 0)

  • Hyde Park Corner by anaesthetica, 03/18/2003 07:23:49 AM EST ( 5.00 / 5)

  • Hey! by rusty, 03/18/2003 11:22:39 AM EST ( 3.00 / 2)

    • Interesting Link by anaesthetica, 03/18/2003 06:23:56 PM EST ( none / 0)

      • Nah by rusty, 03/18/2003 08:26:48 PM EST ( 5.00 / 1)

  • How old are you? by NewsFlash No One Cares, 03/18/2003 01:07:31 PM EST ( 2.75 / 8)

  • Is vs Ought by kholmes, 03/18/2003 07:16:43 PM EST ( 4.66 / 3)

    • 90% rule. by naught, 03/19/2003 03:34:46 PM EST ( none / 0)

my opinion is that you are wrong as hell ( 3.68 / 19) ( #51)

by turmeric on Tue Mar 18, 2003 at 09:43:28 AM EST

my evidence is that henry miller completely fails to mention the horrific history of 'non-debate' in the south. lynchings, the klu klux klan, the assassination of huey long, the death row system, the slave labor penitentiary system, etc.

goddamnit when miller was pontificating about the 'civility' of the south, african americans couldnt even fucking vote.

im sorry but this is the classic case of the 'noble savage' theory that rich fuckers from screwed up societies tend to gravitate towards. your own culture sucks ass so you go out and idealize other cultures and whitewash them and say 'oh look they have solved all our problems, if only the idiots who run our system would do things like that'.

its all crap, and its prejudice and its elitists and its stupid, but worst of all, it's inaccurate.

State and quality of k5 submissions ( 5.00 / 6) ( #58)

by gr00vey on Tue Mar 18, 2003 at 10:39:14 AM EST

are generally very good. I think there is very little room for subtlety, due mostly to the medium. I also think that many people are passionate about their opinions. I really don't see the point of the HM excerpt, and I think the best way for you to acheive your claimed goals is to try practicing them yoursefl. I think you will find it quite a challenge though, as your "rules" are not everyones "rules". For example, the current war situation, we have been fed propaganda, and all the major networks are selling. Only with truely open discourse can we cut through the disinformation.

is futile anyways.

What exactly puts you in a position to understand all things involved in invading a country?

The only people that fully understand these things are GWB and his staff.

124

Sterile and intellectual? ( 3.00 / 1) ( #67)

by davidmb on Tue Mar 18, 2003 at 11:40:10 AM EST

Have you posted on the right site?

I'd say the comments on here are healthily contaminated and just about coherent. That's why I come back!

־‮־

a hearty huzzah, from the South ( 3.70 / 10) ( #75)

by naught on Tue Mar 18, 2003 at 12:50:12 PM EST

as a southerner (albeit pretty far north for the south), miller's lines strike home in a way that makes me wistful in exactly the way that too long a stay in cincinatti ohio does. for those of you who've never experienced life in the south, or even a long stay in a small town in the south, it's a worthwhile trip. take two weeks. or three. and just relax. kick off the shoes, and here's the key talk to people. be friendly.

as to the the question of post quality, etc.: the rampant intellectual posing exists wherever the technically savvy aggregate themselves. (see, even i do it.) the internet subculture as a generalization takes itself and its ideas far too seriously, especially those who consider themselves well-informed or news-conscious. i hear this same phrase over and over, though somewhat more locquaciously put and occasionally more polite:

i'm right goddammit, and you're an idiot! i'm better than you, and my news is better than yours, and my cock is bigger, and i fucked your girlfriend!

we can be self-involved, conceited, and rude because there is no consequence to it. there is no accountability. it's not like we're saying anything to someone's face. fundamentally, conversation on the internet as a whole takes place behind the backs of the other posters. if we were in a room with strangers, having a debate, we would never talk like we do to each other online.

the reason conversation is so good in the south is that no one takes themselves seriously. oh, seriously enough to be sure, but fundamentally, they are not threatened by each other's beliefs. they are secure enough to take it in a stride, and with a sense of humor.

in a forum like this, people are afraid of being wrong, because their Beliefs and Opinions are so central to their identity that to disagree is to challenge that identity, basically the cerebral equivalent of calling them fat. as such, disagreements are perceived as insults, and responded to in this mood.

this has been true for every forum i've ever been on, from usenet through yahoo chat, with the exception of my own site. the only reason that site (and others like it) is excepted is that all the posters know each other, where each other live, etc. (something else we do in the south is respond to insults, and rudeness in general, with vast quantities of violence. =) because there are real consequences for being jackasses on that type of forum, you don't run into the same issues. it becomes more like a conversation, and less like a liberal-arts tag war.

like everything else in the world, take away the penalty, and you take away the incentive.

--

"extension of knowledge is the root of all virtue" -- confucius.

Some cogent points, but I doubt that the southern US today remotely resembles what Miller experienced. I too miss rational, respectful debate. But in a society driven by warp speed 30 second TV ads that talk at the consumer instead of with the consumer, real rational debate is almost a lost art. Add in the punditocracy, which seems to thrive on saying the most assinine things, and you have an environment where he who speaks the loudest is thought to have won the argument.

Now let's you just drop them pants!

       -Don Job, from Deliverance

For my part, I just wish that K5 authors would focus on writing about what they know well, rather than arguing about the same things the rest of the world is arguiing about.  Periodically I'll decide "that's it, I've had it, there's nothing worthwhile on K5 anymore" - and then someone will post a long, engaging article on some obscure corner of science or food preparation or programming that reminds me why I started reading K5 in the first place.  K5 is, largely, a community of interesting people who know interesting things.  The more we talk about those things, the happier I'll be.

--

Now leave us, and take your fish with you. - Faramir

My question is: how can you have a 'Southern' conversation about world affairs? When the events being discussed are far-flung, how else to explore them except through the writings of journalists and scholars?

I don't really see how one isolated from the world, as Miller describes, can sit back in his rocking chair and talk about a distant war, giving it a subtle treatment of the actual subject matter, as you suggest, without citing literature on the subject.

Perhaps we need to inject more of a conscious sense that we're just citing scholarship? Or realize that all most of us have time for, with news headlines, is a hasty reading, and that we should dial down our "certainty" that we understand?

I agree with you about tone, pace, and openness in the conversations we have. It's been too shrill, hasty, and closed-minded of late. Mea culpa, fo sho.

I think posts on Southernerns are OT in a conversation like this, but I'll post one anyway: why do Southerners still think the Civil War is going on?  Why, when I go to the south, I get reactions like "Damn Yankee" when I ask what a "hash brown" is?  Why do I still see confederate flags?

Why, when asking one ex-girlfriend, do they consider it a matter of "pride"?  I don't dress in Union blue.  I don't say "Damn Confederates".  I don't support history which, in my mind, was incredibly disrespectful to certain groups of people.  Why continue this twisted "tradition"?

At least some things that I've found, that helps:

  • If you see that a thread has become polarized, don't reply.

  • Judge a thread in its entirely rather than in its last post.

  • Know who you are responding to. Only give short replies to brow-beaters or trolls, since they aren't worth the effort anyways.

  • Know why you are participating. This can help avoid you responding out of anger.

If you treat people as most people treat things and treat things as most people treat people, you might be a Randian.

  • Very wise response by mguercio, 03/18/2003 08:59:17 PM EST ( 3.00 / 3)
  • True... by loomingleaf, 03/21/2003 07:46:57 AM EST ( none / 0)

ah yes, the superior conversation of the South ( 2.25 / 4) ( #98)

by zzzeek on Tue Mar 18, 2003 at 07:56:39 PM EST

how much more human they are than us northerners !    I am sure they happily kicked back on their porches every night in these superiorly lucid communications, as they continued to be totally fine with enslaving an entire population of humans for 300 years!

who needs those ugly "facts", "morality", or "reasoned arguments", anyway ?  Those southerners have got it figured out.

  • actually by ph0rk, 03/19/2003 05:56:40 PM EST ( 5.00 / 2)

(although Texas really isn't Southern in the strictest sense)

According to Merriam-Webster, "southern" is defined as:

a: lying toward the south; b: coming from the south

In the face of this evidence, one can only glean that Texas, in the strictest sense, is southern. All ideas to the contrary are wrong. Perhaps you should peruse the internet more, and get your cold hard facts straight.

FIXME: Insert quote about procrastination

Listening vs. Talking ( 4.00 / 2) ( #117)

by yndrd on Wed Mar 19, 2003 at 09:26:07 AM EST

I've discovered that the general level of discourse on public message boards tends to be very low because there seems to be a greater cultural emphasis these days on speaking/expressing than on listening.

I see people on message boards who are verbal cowboys who prefer to shoot a person for pulling out a pack of cigarettes than let someone potentially get "the drop" on them.

I lurk on several boards and post only when I have something to say. I don't feel compelled to argue every point or have my mousy cries heard above the general din. Even when I do have something to say, I usually pause and consider it before posting.

  • Best boards? by OldTigger, 03/19/2003 11:02:30 AM EST ( none / 0)

Info overload -- where's the analysis? ( 3.00 / 2) ( #118)

by OldTigger on Wed Mar 19, 2003 at 09:38:53 AM EST

This was a good idea for an article, and said well.

I'm new here, it's not clear to me how to rate articles and replies, but I do think that's the right idea.

And, at some point, allow folks to filter OUT those with low ratings, or this one from an unrated guy, etc.

Rating is one key. Easy filtering is another.

Weblogs (blogging!) is yet another, where brief, quick thoughtfulness is rewarded -- by more hits. And, of course, bloggers reading bloggers.

Also, and perhaps quite important, is that LOTS of folks realize the upcoming US - Iraq war/ police action (enforcing UN resolutions) is a watershed singularity in history (maybe?), so there's a huge amount of uncertainty and tension associated with it. [I'd even say a lot of the anti-war emotion is the desire to go back to a situation of less uncertainty; not a real option, but a strong desire -- that's a different rant, though]

And, in a conversation, different rants can be followed, or dropped, easily. But usemail/ forums & responses/ blogging & commetns are all still fairly new, and perhaps changing too fast to develop customs that can withstand environmental (the war) waves well.

Some of my thoughts, anyway. (I'll save them for myself in a word journal, not quite ready for good blogging, yet.)

Freedom with responsibility

Info overload -- where's the analysis? ( 3.00 / 2) ( #120)

by OldTigger on Wed Mar 19, 2003 at 10:00:18 AM EST

This was a good idea for an article, and said well.

I'm new here, it's not clear to me how to rate articles and replies, but I do think that's the right idea.

And, at some point, allow folks to filter OUT those with low ratings, or this one from an unrated guy, etc.

Rating is one key. Easy filtering is another.

Weblogs (blogging!) is yet another, where brief, quick thoughtfulness is rewarded -- by more hits. And, of course, bloggers reading bloggers.

Also, and perhaps quite important, is that LOTS of folks realize the upcoming US - Iraq war/ police action (enforcing UN resolutions) is a watershed singularity in history (maybe?), so there's a huge amount of uncertainty and tension associated with it. [I'd even say a lot of the anti-war emotion is the desire to go back to a situation of less uncertainty; not a real option, but a strong desire -- that's a different rant, though]

And, in a conversation, different rants can be followed, or dropped, easily. But usemail/ forums & responses/ blogging & commetns are all still fairly new, and perhaps changing too fast to develop customs that can withstand environmental (the war) waves well.

Some of my thoughts, anyway. (I'll save them for myself in a word journal, not quite ready for good blogging, yet.)

Freedom with responsibility

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